Thank you for the opportunity to apply your wisdom and genius today as we sense into dialogue and its value in our world today; on an individual and collective level. I am so excited to see what wants to be known here today as dialogue is an essential part of Sensemaking, and there are so many forms of dialogue and so much need for openhearted, open-minded and curious engagements, where we tap into the collective intelligence and intuition.
Hannelie: What is dialogue in essence for you about?
David: Dialogue explores how thought is generated and sustained at the collective level. Our “pool of knowledge” acts as a virus. It may turn out that such a free exchange of ideas and information is of fundamental relevance in transforming culture so that creativity can be liberated.
Hannelie: Most people do not realize the power and effect of thought on a collective level. I love the virus metaphor, as that is exactly how our thoughts reverberate through the universe and create our realities, and affect everything around us. And yes, culture needs to transform so our creative powers can be liberated. What does culture mean to you?
David: A culture implies a shared meaning.
Hannelie: Sensing into that, is that not exactly what binds us together? Shared meaning? Yet meaning is such a wide concept with so many configurations and forms. And as we constantly create more meaning, what value will this creativity have in the future as it can easily cause confusion, entanglement and dissonance?
David: In the future, creativity will be meaningful only if it is relevant to all humanity.
Hannelie: Unfolding from many Sensemaking encounters, I began to notice that incoherence can disrupt flow of consciousness, in the event that we are not able to transcend our own personal hidden agendas, (in which we have invested so much energy and attention, and which started to define us) and project that into meaning. It is then not easy to have the greater good of the collective at heart. What is your perspective about incoherent meaning?
David: If our meanings are incoherent, how are we going to participate in truth?
Hannelie: Truth… It is a concept that can cause even more misunderstanding, dissonance and separation, as whose truth are we considering? Many humans experience reality as the one they have been conditioned to see, as the only truth and are under the illusion that the primary reality is something they had no hand in creating or contributing to. How do you perceive reality?
David: To take rocks, trees, planets or stars as the primary reality would be like assuming that the vortices in a river exist in their own right and are totally independent of the flowing river itself. Things enfold and are enfolded by the entire universe.
Hannelie: This is a deep truth to consider and immerse ourselves in. I am resonating with it deeply — this mutuality — enfold and being enfolded. It does not even make sense to be resistant to such a notion as it provides a magnificent sense of safety, nurturing and comfort. It might be difficult for some to perceive, if their life view and frame of reference is that we are all separate parts. How would you respond to that?
David: If we think of the world as separate from us and constituted of disjointed parts to be manipulated with the aid of calculations, we will tend to try to become separate people, whose main motivation with regard to each other and to nature is also manipulation and calculation.
Hannelie: The closeness and nurturing space in a Sensemaking encounter in my experience spontaneously dissolves separation when we begin to engage in a more expansive way, meaning we do not only use thinking, but enact all our senses, inner and outer, and extraordinary, and the collective intuition to sense into notions such as enfoldment. There is an underlying order and synergy that begins to emerge, which transforms manipulation and calculation. Why do you feel this is happening?
David: Because the whole is enfolded in each part, so are all other parts, in some way and to some degree. The more fundamental truth is the truth of interrelatedness — the implicate order. In this order the whole and hence all the other parts are enfolded in each part.
Hannelie: Interrelatedness. Another notion not easily understood by some; going back to the separation issue. When we begin to tune into and sense into the collective intuition, interrelatedness becomes real. We are able to experience it on so many levels. For those who feel fragmented, interrelatedness might be a foreign concept. How would you explain it to them?
David: The true state of affairs in the material world is wholeness. If we are fragmented we must blame it on ourselves.
Hannelie: What emerges for me is that our conditioning and upbringing has much to do with this; this fragmentation. Do you think it is possible for young people to have open dialogue within their family structures to explore this notion of wholeness?
David: It’s difficult to have true dialogue in a family because it’s generally a hierarchy organized on a principle of authority.
Hannelie: That is what excites me about Sensemaking too. Once we begin to engage all our sensibilities hierarchical structures dissolve, whether a close-knit family, community, organization or other group of people. We begin to relate on a deeper, more compassionate, trusting, and tolerant and open level. Why can humanity not transcend this sense of separation and fragmentation? We have made so many scientific and other discoveries.
David: It later became clear to me that no matter what we do in science or any other area, it will not help if we don’t find a way to be related to each other at a deep level.
Hannelie: What emerges for me now is that our relatedness goes beyond just how we feel about each other and existence, thus the whole. Our thoughts and beliefs can easily sabotage a sense of connectedness and relatedness. You spoke about a virus earlier. Many have the perception that when you had a thought it has no impact. I often do this fun thing when I go on my daily walks. Passing homes early morning I imagine, and yes sometimes it is scary to even phantom that and also a lot of fun, what thoughts hang in the collective above the houses in the neighborhood. What happens with a thought?
David: When you are finished with a thought, it’s not gone. It’s folded back into the rest of consciousness. It may unfold again in another form.
Hannelie: I sense that once we begin to embrace and understand the power and effects of thought our world will be in a better state. How do you feel about thought?
David: Thought has created a lot of good things. It is a very important instrument, but if we don’t notice how it works, it can also do great harm.
Hannelie: During dialogue of any nature it happens often that participants try to impose their opinions and point of views on others, and react to their reactions when not getting the desired response, and likewise others identify with what is shared, which cause reactive behavior. Again, in Sensemaking, we prefer to invite participants to sense into what is shared, rather than to identify with it as so much more is available to us in this way to emerge. It triggers more to become known versus reactive prejudices that stymie the flow of collective wisdom. How do you feel about force used during dialogue to get a point of view across?
David: Even in the jungle, force is not called for all the time. In fact, mostly suspension is what is called for, and force only occasionally.
Hannelie: Suspension; yes, to me that is making space for something to emerge. Any dialogue or Sensemaking experience is such a sacred space to be in. That almost imperceptible, sacred non-verbal communication that is happening, whether we are aware of it or not. The role of the observer, who can use all their sensibilities to tap into the collective intelligence and intuition, is precious and is just as active as the one sharing for example. It does not mean they are a passive participant. What is your insights relating to the observer? I am not talking about the cynic or critic or judge, but the openhearted, open-minded, fully present and available observer who can truly ask: What wants to happen here?
David: The observed is profoundly affected by the observer and the observer by the observed. It’s a process. Krishnamurti used to say: “The observer is the observed.”
Hannelie: That is beautifully said. Thank you. Yes, we become one and in flow, which does not mean we are the same. What comes up now is Hippocrates’s wisdom: “There is one common flow, one common breathing, all things are in sympathy.” To me that is when the observer is the observed; completely connected and tuned into each other and the collective. David thank you so much for the ability to share your wisdom and insights in this context with the world. It has been amazing. It is with great reverence for your life that we honor and give gratitude for the presence, wisdom, impact and understanding relating to consciousness and many other phenomena that you gifted us with. On behalf of humanity, thank you from my heart. In parting, what wisdom would you like to share with us today?
David: Whatever we know of the world, there is always more.
Hannelie: Thank you David, that is so powerful and true. My version of that is: There is always another level of truth and awareness waiting to be discovered.
To you the receiver — reader, thank you for being with us today in the presence of David Bohm.
David Joseph Bohm was an American scientist who has been described as one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th century and who contributed unorthodox ideas to quantum theory, neuropsychology and the philosophy of mind. David’s main concern was with understanding the nature of reality in general and of consciousness in particular as a coherent whole, which according to Bohm is never static or complete but rather an unfolding process. Photograph and Bio Extract — Wikipedia
What wants to be known to you and through you today?
Hannelie Venucia is our resident Sensemaker at the Sensemaking Institute, and Joy-Rendezvous-er at The Rainbow Bridge Conservatory, and Muse, Minstrel, Sage and Creator of this sense-pad called In the Presence of… Where collective and personal wisdom and insights take off and land.
www.sensemakinginstitute.org and www.hannelievenucia.com